Finding God in the midst of suffering

Sister Rejane  
This Random Nun Clip is brought to you by A Nun's Life Ministry.

Sister Julie  
So we begin first on a serious note with a question that came in from Marla.

Sister Maxine  
Marla said, "Over the years, many theologians have written about suffering as it relates to God. Rabbi Harold Kushner wrote one of the most memorable: When Bad Things Happen to Good People." Marla goes on to say, "I rejected Kushner's conclusions when I read the book in the 1980s, but eventually settled into a place where I fear God is either not all-loving, or is not all-powerful." She asks, "What is your take on why God allows suffering?" Certainly a question for the ages.

Sister Julie  
I wish I could say we have the definitive answer on that, we know how to make it through suffering intact and well and peaceful. But part of the nature of suffering, I think, is that it throws things asunder. Things are all over the place. And the things we felt we had solid ground on, we're not so sure about.

Sister Maxine  
Part of that solid ground is, well, what about God in all of this? If God is all-powerful, then couldn't God step in and do something about it? And if God is all-loving, why doesn't God step in and do something about it? There's so many different opinions about suffering. Some things about suffering I believe -- and I think there's a lot of theology that would support that -- is suffering is first and foremost, not divine retribution. It's not because anybody did something in life to "deserve it." It's not brought about necessarily by something we do -- sometimes we can bring about our own suffering. But many times the suffering is not about something we directly did.

Sister Julie  
It somehow seems easier to think of that way. On the one hand, it's not cool to think that that God's after us. On the other hand, it's kind of handy to think that, because at least it puts a name on the experience, instead of just the randomness that we sometimes feel when we're in that space.

Sister Maxine  
In some ways, it is better to think that we can somehow exert some control, rather than to think we are merely operating on the randomness.

Sister Julie  
Right.

Sister Maxine  
There's no logic to it.

Sister Julie  
Right.

Sister Maxine  
It would be almost more comforting to think we could not predict, but control that.

Sister Julie  
Yeah. So I mean, what's the alternative? Because I don't really like either of those.

Sister Maxine  
And then there's the notion that God is testing us. And we see this often interpreted in Job, that God is testing us, or God is somehow trying to make us stronger, or preparing us in some way for something greater.

Sister Julie  
Those arguments drive me crazy, because I don't believe that about God. I can hardly imagine someone who loves me, who created me, who was just looking out for those opportunities to sort of stick it to me -- to make me, you know, make me pull up my bootstraps and build some character, girl.

Sister Maxine  
Well, that's along the line of thinking -- I think it was the philosopher Nietzsche -- who said that which does not kill us makes us stronger. And I've always interpreted that as that which does not kill us, does not kill us.

Sister Julie  
He needed a nun around him. [laughter] Those things drive me crazy, because I can't believe in a God like that. It's difficult for me to kind of figure out what God is doing, and how God is apprehending the situation, understanding the situation, but I just don't want to go to that space.

Sister Maxine  
We would also want to say that suffering in and of itself is not inherently good. There is nothing that makes suffering better than not suffering. We would want to be very clear about that.

Sister Julie  
Yeah. And when we talk about finding God in the midst of suffering or finding the grace in the moment, it's not to say that we can only find God by suffering. It's not to say that at all. But it's to say that God stands with us in the good times and in the bad times. And we can search that out and experience that grace in those moments. But it is not at all to say that God makes that happen to us so that we can experience God in that way.

Sister Maxine  
Just as God doesn't want us to suffer, that suffering is not a sign of God hating us. It is not a reason why abuse happens to people. It is not a reason why starvation happens to people. And it raises that question again: why have a God?

Sister Julie  
Well, I look at the things that happen. And you, Sister, and I, and folks in our chat room, have had experience that are true suffering. Not a bad hair day; true suffering. And there have been times in those moments for me where I thought that there was just nothing good, that all was lost. A kind word would come at the most odd time. I'd hear a dog bark in a way that I'd never heard dogs bark before, and be open to that mystery of life and I can't explain it because I'm kind of a cynic at heart. I know you'd never believe that, Sister. But I am a little bit of a cynic at heart like, "Yeah, yeah, signs, shmines." But those things really touched me. And they pulled me out of myself in ways that helped me to be like, okay, yep, this is what I've got in front of me. And then there are these other things around me. And I'd rather be defined by those other things about me, that are around me, then about this thing that is just causing me so much pain.

Sister Maxine  
Your observation about suffering and noticing God's presence in your life more... Suffering is a state of vulnerability. And I think when we are in those places, we have the capacity to be more open -- not always, but sometimes. And maybe it is at that point, we are more receptive.

Sister Julie  
I think so. What makes it very difficult are circumstances such as abuse -- abuse by those we trust, those in authority, those we love. And those can be some of the most heart-wrenching spaces to be in because we are vulnerable, and we need a God to save us. We need that love. And it seems almost unimaginable that God wouldn't be with us in that. And yet, a lot of times people who have suffered abuse are told that it's their fault, that they're the ones who caused this and that they brought the suffering upon themselves. Those are the really difficult places to be -- especially when people outside of us that we trust our reinforcing messages, like we're the ones who did it and deserved it.

Sister Maxine  
To not internalize those images of God is really significant as well.

Sister Julie  
Yeah.

Sister Maxine  
To have that image of a punishing God -- you twitch once the wrong way, and God's going to lower the boom.

Sister Julie  
Right.

Sister Maxine  
Instead of internalizing the God who is with us in our suffering, who can be with us when maybe no one else can be. And to let that be the image that comes through even in our suffering.

Sister Julie  
Joyce Elaine says, "I learned slowly that there is good and evil in this world, by way of free will. That there is always going to be good and bad." That's a really tough thing to own. Because there's a definite truth about that, even though we work hard to always move towards goodness, and to put behind us that which is evil, that which pulls us away from the good.

Sister Maxine  
Looking at a couple of comments in the chat room -- Rachelle says, "I can completely understand why people are atheists." And I think that is understandable. We are confronted with great, great mystery. God, that doesn't always make sense to us. It would be not helpful to not question that in our lives. And I think it is good to question, good to question what kind of a God we have, what kind of a God we need, what kind of God we want to help bring about in the world.

Sister Julie  
And Marla asked the question here, "Why then did God bother to create us? If God could create perfect beings, happy to love always -- why put suffering in the picture?" Barbara said earlier in the chat room, you know, we've been asking these questions since we were first conscious, and probably a little bit before that. I'm reminded of -- I can't remember what the name of the philosophy is, but I came across it in a work environment -- where you're supposed to focus not on your weaknesses and the gaps in your training, but to focus in on your strengths and make your strengths better. Instead of trying to cover up or strengthen your weaknesses, focus on what is good. And I know that this sounds so trivial, but because I can't always make sense of the whole suffering thing -- it truly is a mystery -- I try to go to that space of looking at the pieces that are life-giving, even if there is a dark cloud around them or all seems to be lost. To really focus not necessarily on why the dissonance, in terms of suffering, theodicy, and all that. But to focus on the things that I see that are good and, hopefully, outshine the things that that I'm very uncomfortable with or don't quite understand. Now, it could be a little simplistic, I understand that. But I think there is some truth -- at least that I've come into -- of being able to go to where the energy is, go to where the goodness is, and allow that to flood into my life.

Sister Rejane  
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